Today and yesterday

[phyloxena]

1. My daughter got to an age, or a stage, when she asks her very few friends for book recommendations.  Her last acquisition (is it a right word?) was something called "101 ways to bug your parents".  I read it, not because I censor her reading, which I'm not entirely adverse  (is it a right word?) to do, but do not do yet, since she doesn't read enough yet for the said censorship to be needed, but because the book was lying around.   The book starts with grotesquely cliche, but still funny, description of the middle-school class dynamics (the topic and the setting I hate profoundly, if this is a word): a vain and gossiping girl, a cool guy, a pretentious boy, a girl with a sad back-story, and a couple of nerds nobody likes.  Nerd#1, the narrator, needs money to get to an inventor's convent.  He also needs means of transportation and some parental attention.  Silly boy, he could have had so much fun with his sympathetic, permissive and overburdened parents while and as long as they were not paying attention.  But this is a standard school-library fare.  Anyway.  Nerd#2, the sidekick, gets kicked aside in the course of the story, but bounces back vigorously and shows his waivering friend the true meaning of friendship.  Nerd#1 writes a book about bugging parents to sell it, because he needs money.  He gets in trouble.  He gets out of trouble.  In a true heroic moment he forces his way in the room with the the PTO meeting there his book and possible firing (for permitting this topic for an assignment) of his teacher is discussed, and, in a dissociated moment, hears himself speaking in a microphone that firing the teacher would be wrong.  Fanfare.  He doesn't get to the convention, but he discovers...  Oh, my.  How the same hand that which could type "Burp with your mouth open"could type "Because the inventing is who I am [...] Doing something because you believe in it, because it's right -- that' what counts".  I mean.  It's almost as bad as a book about a girl who was so nice and good all little cuddly animals believed she was beautiful, even if she, actually, was just as plain as you are, my gentle reader.  Now go blow your nose and be good.  Now, the question.  What are the normal, staple, classical English books for a seven-year-old to read?  I don't mind reasonable amount of violence and disturbance, and I have very lax notion of what is appropriate, but I don't want her to read something good too early, not get most of it and ruin her perception of the book.   Currently she reads this bugs, the Church Mice series and "the Jungle Book".

2. While visiting friends happened to watch last fifteen minutes of a generic TV movie.  School bus of hostages, a maniac who turned mad with his problems with IRS (my heart goes out for the men), frantic parents abusing very David Wellham -like (but shorter and handsomier) boyfriend of the hostage driver, yelling at him how hard it was to persuade  their children that the school bus was safe (my heart goes out for the moronic parents: of course the school bus is not safe!), a sweating pony-tailed blond female police lieutenant with the sexiest sing-song voice, a cool to pieces police sniper.   No idea how they got there.  The madman was shot, the children were safe, the brunette driver kissed her boyfriend, my kids crawled out from under the furniture and asked why didn't they shot at tires?  I do not know. 

Comments

[nimlotbradamant.livejournal.com]

There are a bunch of English classic stories for kids, some at a higher level than others, but which all ages should enjoy. Some people will insist on leaving all half-way interesting stories (i.e., Treasure Island, The Odyssey) to kids, but I think it's better for them to discover these for themselves at a slightly later age (says she who was into Shakespeare and Tolkien at nine).

These are a few good classics, which she may or may not be up to reading, depending on her age:

The Winnie-The-Pooh books by A A Milne;
Alice in Wonderland and Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll;
The Magic Pudding by Norman Lindsey;
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle;
Peter Rabbit and others by Beatrix Potter (she's probably already a bit old for these, but the pictures are delightful and the writing is pretty mature);
Farmer Giles of Ham by Tolkien;
Roverandom by Tolkien;
Tales From Shakespeare by Charles and Mary Lamb (may be worth waiting a little later on this one, but nevertheless a great introduction to Shakespeare);
The Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis (of course);
The Professor Branestawm books by Norman Hunter (v. funny!);
Puck of Pook's Hill and Rewards and Fairies by Rudyard Kipling;
Grimm's Fairy Tales;
The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie by George Macdonald;
Anne of Green Gables (though it may be worth waiting on this one).

These are only a few, what I can remember, now, but hopefully that will give you an idea or two ;).

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Some are completely new for me, and some I already read to my kids earlier in translation. Winnie-the-Pooh (already learned by heart in translation) actually was the first book she risked to read on her own.

[lady-branwyn.livejournal.com]

my kids crawled out from under the furniture and asked why didn't they shot at tires?
This is my reaction exactly to most TV movies--trauma from the noise and violence combined with disbelief at the stupidity of the plot. :-D

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

You see, hostages, school bus, police et all was all new concept for my kids. They don't ride the bus, and they see TV only sporadically. From their perspective there is almost no difference between the reality of the hostage crisis and the stupidity of the movie. I had to explain and explain and explain, but I do not know why they didn't shot at tires!

Books for seven-year olds?

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I'm not well up on modern books for smaller children, but classics-wise, has she tried 'Winnie the Pooh'? I don't think you need to be any particular age to enjoy it, but certainly a lot of seven-year-olds do. If she likes 'Jungle Book', has she tried the 'Just-So Stories'? What about 'The Hobbit' for reading aloud, if she likes being read to?

As for revoltingly 'correct' books for kids, they have always been with us and always will be. The notions they peddle change with society, of course, but the books are always there and they're always awful, and children grow out of them pretty fast.

Do you know the glorious short story by Saki called 'The Story-Teller'? It's about a Horribly Good little girl who gets her come-uppance, and it's the antidote to all saccharine literature for children. It's online at

http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/Storyteller.html

Thanks!

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

We read "the Hobbit", "Just-So Stories", and "Winnie the Pooh" aloud several times. Winni is (she reads it by chapters) the first book she risked to read herself, as a sort of comfort reading, I guess. I don't think she will get through "the Hobbit" by her own. "Alice in Wonderland" we didn't try yet. Could you suggest some non-fiction, or some sort of "real" stories?

Non-fiction?

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

Non-fiction is really difficult, because books date so quickly. When I was seven I had a fossil book and an astronomy book which I almost literally read to pieces, but they'd both be impossibly dated now. I think there's a good case for taking the child to the bookshop and letting her choose her own non-fiction books. If they seem too advanced, I wouldn't worry; half the fun of learning is being baffled-but-fascinated, and then becoming progressively less baffled.

Re: Non-fiction?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

I forgot about getting dated part. Still, there may be some classic of the gender. Most of the children's non-fiction that catches the eye in the bookstore or library are DK Eyewitness and Discovery books. They have great pictures, as it seems to be the point, and they allow to choose your own level, but the material is sort of disjointed. On the other hand, maybe system is overrated. I would skip any introductory chapter. Works best with the chemistry kit manual: Elements? What elements? Let's just add this powder to that jar...

Re: Non-fiction?

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

You are so right about system. Most recent non-fiction books for children, and indeed for adults, are so ablaze with colour pictures, and so full of panels giving odd, disjointed bits of information, that it's hard to follow the text. I find that sort of layout very exhausting, and when I was a school teacher, I found that less able children simply couldn't find the relevant information at all, the page was so divided up and jazzy. I'll have a look round our local bookshops for some books that have a properly presented, continuous text. Has your daughter got any particular interests in the non-fiction department?

(BTW, I think you meant 'classic of the genre'. And I would say 'as seems to be the point', rather than 'as it seems to be the point'.)

Re: Non-fiction?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

gender/genre: some mistakes are embarrassing. Thank you!

She doesn't have any particular scientific interests besides math. She would look through any colorful book with anatomy, animals, or rocks.

Re: Non-fiction?

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I'll certainly have a think about rocks. It's my passion too.

Re: Books for seven-year olds?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link.

I just read "the Story-Teller". I liked it, but I have to see if a child will get the irony. The "bitter" story itself is just as lame as auntie's saccharine stories. I was surprised my d.'s ten-year-old friend gave her that book in the first place, I would expect children this old to be allergic to all sots of correct books. On the other hand, I myself still always side with the good guys. So maybe there are different degrees of the reader's gullibility.

Re: Books for seven-year olds?

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't give 'The Story-Teller' to a child - Saki is very much adult stuff. It just shows very well, I think, how children react to most 'improving' books. ('The Toys of Peace' is another very telling blow at politically correct treatment of children, though it dates back to pre-WW1).

I will side with the good guys so long as they aren't goody-goody!

twice self-concious

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

If the good guys are seriously goody-goody... I cannot even recall who it would be. Which means either the book didn't leave a trace or I cannot tell good from goody-goody.

I realize you have enough teaching in your RL, but would you mind correcting my English in you replies?

Re: twice self-concious

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I'll gladly correct your English henceforward if you like - though I think it's very, very good already. Do you know an easy way to switch over a keyboard to Russian alphabet so I can try to stammer out a few things in Russian? (It would be back to 'this bridge, this house, this Moscow State University' to start with, I'm afraid.)

Goody-goody heroes are not nearly as popular these days as they used to be. The classic model was 'Little Lord Fauntleroy', by Frances Hodgson Burnett (author of 'The Secret Garden' and 'A Little Princess', both of which your daughter might enjoy). He is 'horribly good' and his name became an insult among children for centuries. Even more repulsive apparently, though I haven't read it, was 'Eric, or Little By Little', by Dean Farrar. The reacion against that kind of syrupy goodness gave us characters like William Brown and Nigel Molesworth. By the way, your daughter might enjoy the William books (by Richmal Crompton), if she isn't put off by the pre-WW2 English background. I wouldn't give her Molesworth, though, until she's pretty secure about English spelling. The Molesworth books ('Down with Skool', etc.), by Geoffrey Willans and Ronald Searle, are hilariously funny, but Molesworth cant spel for toffe and you cant believe everything he sa chiz.

Re: twice self-concious

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Thank you!
Typing in Russian: I'm pretty used to transliterated Russian, but if you prefer it looked properly, there is a converter (one of the several)
http://www.benya.com/cyrillic/
which allows you to type Latin letters and converts the text in proper Cyrillic. I'm not sure how you import the result into LJ post/comment field, but I believe cut/paste should work. It has a conversion sidebar useful for unintuitive cases like ы=y
Little Lord Fauntleroy sounds familiar. I certainly never read it, but the name is infamous.

Re: twice self-conscious

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I've bookmarked the transliterator - thanks!

The opening of LLF is as follows:

-1-

CEDRIC himself knew nothing whatever about it. It had never been even mentioned to him. He knew that his papa had been an Englishman, because his mamma had told him so; but then his papa had died when he was so little a boy that he could not remember very much about him, except that he was big, and had blue eyes and a long mustache, and that it was a splendid thing to be carried around the room on his shoulder. Since his papa's death, Cedric had found out that it was best not to talk to his mamma about him. When his father was ill, Cedric had been sent away, and when he had returned, everything was over; and his mother, who had been very ill, too, was only just beginning to sit in her chair by the window. She was pale and thin, and all the dimples had gone from her pretty face, and her eyes looked large and mournful, and she was dressed in black.

"Dearest," said Cedric (his papa had called her that always, and so the little boy had learned to say it), -- "dearest, is my papa better?"




-2-



He felt her arms tremble, and so he turned his curly head and looked in her face. There was something in it that made him feel that he was going to cry.

"Dearest," he said, "is he well?"

Then suddenly his loving little heart told him that he'd better put both his arms around her neck and kiss her again and again, and keep his soft cheek close to hers; and he did so, and she laid her face on his shoulder and cried bitterly, holding him as if she could never let him go again.


That's probably enough!

Re: twice self-conscious

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Well... It is no worse than some LotR fanfiction I have read. A sure method to make a perfect hero: just kill little boy's daddy before the boy develops any Oedipal tensions. Kill the mom before she interferes with the dating, too.

There is a horrible orphaned goody-goody girl in Russian classics, Netochka Nezvanova, by Dostoevsky. Very similar middle-class imagery, tears and trembles. Plus revolting tender female friendship moments as written by an old man, dirty and perverse for all I know. He probably didn't mean it to be sexual, that was just the fashion of the girl's friendship of that period, but all this crying one's heart out on another's shoulder, both in nightshirts, is a bit sick.


Aragorn, btw, is not like that. First, he blunders and tarries enough to bring dire consequences upon himself and others, and, second, LotR is more of an action than of a character study. Aragorn acts in a way that moves the plot, and there is very little introspection. Faramir gives in (am I saying what I mean? The right idiom escapes me) to Denethor, and Aragorn gives in to Elrond in very similar way. He had better luck with an authority, but it's not his fault. And there is nothing lesbian about him...

Re: twice self-conscious

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

In Victorian fiction it was very common to kill off parents. I suppose it reflected reality, in that there were so many things that you could die of: childbirth to start with, in the case of many mothers. It's the same further back: Shakespeare, for example, is obviously very interested in parent-child relationships, but it's very unusual for both parents to still be in the picture. Leontes and Hermione are one exception, but they're not exactly a happy couple, and Hermione is believed to be dead, by Leontes and by their daughter, for many years. Nowadays, the death of one parent is not assumed to be likely, but the absence of one parent through divorce is taken almost for granted in many novels for children. It often makes a good story, of course.

I don't know what Freud have to say about kids that don't grow up with their mothers/fathers. Do they fail to develop an oedipus/electra complex, or do they just project it onto the nearest male/female adult? It's all bunk anyway, in my opinion.

Passionate, but not (homo)sexual, friendships between people of the same sex seem to be taboo just now. Isn't it funny how, the more we are exhorted to see homosexuality as 'normal', the more horrified 'straight' people are if they're accused of it? In past times (take Shakespeare again!), expressions of passionate affection for a same-sex friend were taken entirely for granted. Personally, I can't see anything wrong with that, even in nighties, though what goes on in the murky depths of Dostoevsky's imagination may be another thing altogether.

You're absolutely right to say that JRRT leaves little if any room for introspection in LoTR, except occasionally among the hobbits. The only Aragorn introspection I can remember is when he's wondering what to do at the very beginning of TT. You have to deduce what's going on in the minds of most of the LoTR characters, including Faramir of course, from what they say or do. The fascinating thing is how easy this seems to be - even if we don't all agree on the interpretation. It was the same in medieval fiction, which was where JRRT got most of his inspiration of course. Medieval writers didn't have our sophisticated psychological vocabulary, but they understood people well enough. They just applied that understanding in a different way.

Re: twice self-conscious

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

My remark about the absence of parents had more to do with ficwriters (whom it's unfair to blame because Tolkien killed off the parents) than with the constants of the Victorian fiction. Freud offers pretty absurd scaffolding for the character study, which is sometimes better than none, and sometimes worse. Anyway, his nonsense is common place now, contaminating the speech and hard to ignore. I used to be very enthusiastic about psychoanalysis when I discovered it in my teens. It seemed to explain and so remove from my active thought process so many irritating things; now Freud seems to me as creepy as other influential philosophers of that period, like Marx and Pavlov.

Passionate, but not (homo)sexual, friendships between people of the same sex seem to be taboo just now...expressions of passionate affection for a same-sex friend were taken entirely for granted

Have you read "The Warrior in Tiger's Skin" by Rustaveli? I have no idea what is it worth on the world's literature scale. It's Georgian poem based on a Persian legend, about adventures of the three princes who are recovering their stolen and bewitched brides. They fight demons, lions and armies, and passionately cry/comfort each other with immodest praise in between. Shakespeare, or said Rustavely, is one thing, but murky depths of Dostoevsky (very nice way to put it!) is entirely another. These girls in nighties are certainly sick in some way. Neurotic, or hysterical, or deprived of vitamins D and B16, I don't care. In my unfavorable onion he begs for psychoanalysis to appear and set things right. And I don't imply that same-sex sexuality is sick, it's none of my business.

Also, it appears that people in modern (Western) world keep larger physical distance than they used to. From the expressed ban on any physical contact in some school to larger houses, people don't seem to touch one another naturally, innocently or unintentionally.

Touching

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

In Britain, at least, touching another person has become a dangerous act. If it's another adult of the opposite sex, it'll probably be assumed that you're in a sexual relationship, or want to be. If it's another adult of the same sex, you'll probably be assumed to be homosexual. And if it's a child, God help you, because nobody nowadays dare lay even a fingertip on a child that isn't their own, for fear of being set down as a paedophile and lynched by a hysterical mob. It's got to the point where a teacher in a nursery school daren't pick up and comfort a howling infant who's just fallen over in the playground. In fact, most schools have explicit rules forbidding them to do so.

Honestly, I think I'd rather have Lord Fauntleroy, or even Little-by-Little.

Re: Touching

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

I have no way to know if you are exaggerating! It sounds like caricature of Boston or Berkeley.

Re: Touching

[nestashouse.livejournal.com]

I always exaggerate.

The above statement is, of course, exaggerated.

of course

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

But only a little bit.
Probably makes no sense to try to quantify the exaggeration.

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

She might be a little young yet, as the hero is 11, but I would reccomend the Just William Books by Richmal Crompton.
They were favourites of mine and my Mother before me and can be enjoyed by all ages.

They concern the adventures of a boy,his friends and often a little girl called violet Elizabeth and are set in the 1930's in England. They are very funny as they show the adult world through the eyes of a naughty, but always well meaning child.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Linda! I will try Just William Books. Even is it is too early I'll keep them in mind for the fiture.

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

There is a whole series, so if she likes them, plenty of reading ahead. They feature such adventures as William putting on a bear suit and being unable to get out of it, various trips to the sea, William being outwitted by & year old Violet Elizabeth and lots of attempts to put on shows.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

*Copying the title for the next visit to the library*

[ipain.livejournal.com]

videogames are today's best stories to read.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

I'm familiar with this idea. They sure beat regular pulp from the school library, provided my computer supported them.

[ipain.livejournal.com]

its bigger then an idea. its like u HAVE to buy an all-inclusive computer able to support them, likewise u would buy a LAMP to read at nights five centuries or so ago.

literacy fastly becomes visceral.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Spare me, and stop shouting. I have it at home all the time and don't even argue back. Not that I have any arguments. I, like, going to buy new Mac w. Leopard once they release it. The difference is that not every kid, or a group of technically qualified adults for that matter, can produce a coherent story. Like, D&D enthusiasts claimed it was better than reading fantasy. Pulp fantasy, no question. Tolkien, no thanks, my idiot playmates could not produce remotely as interesting module (don't bother to argue this one). Arina likes a good story, a story with pattern. Pinguin club she likes, too.

I'm asking people who grew in USA or UK into somebody I like to talk to now what do they remember from their reading.

[ipain.livejournal.com]

oo comon, i wasnt arguing or shouting, just chatting.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

ok, ok, I'm faking overreaction.

[ipain.livejournal.com]

was it ever help to chat, i wonder =)

anyway, just bought a book with 'solutions' to 200 action games from 1980s. the games look like today's but just limited to one quest and memory slot. so club pinguin multitasking is kinda polilogs of dostoevsky for kids. or is it? i wonder while chatting =)

and spoilers bother me lately. what spoiler is all about? isn't a reeeally good story is good even after one knows the end? game solutions are also spoilers. how to spoil club pinguin?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

No, but the fun nevertheless.

I don't get the point of spoiling/avoiding the spoilers, but, on the other hand, would you look for solution of a math problem? I could, being sufficiently frustrated, but it never was satisfying (that goes for game/clup pinguin spoilers). Do you like mystery stories?

[ipain.livejournal.com]

well, even more - i was once surprised by the existence of textbooks with solutions! and then suprised again when learning that solutions doesn't help that much. finding a wrong/mistyped solution then becomes name of the game.

thou if solution includes ways, then surely - it would be spoling fun. hm, haven't read much mysteries later - and again it depends: this lovely book was a wonderful mystery (check it out btw), and i knew the ending kinda beforehand. still suprusingly unpredictable. mystery style vs. mystery narrative? does author know the answer already or just facsinated with a magic of a new unknown world?

ps. while searching for a book link, found this title: The Strange Case of the Broad Street Pump: John Snow and the Mystery of Cholera =)

[zygayny158.livejournal.com]

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